As we approach the one-year anniversary of Breonna Taylor's killing, the connection between deeply problematic policing and the criminalization of drugs has never been more apparent. On this episode, we take a deep dive into the changes that some communities are already making. Portland City Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty sat down with DPA Senior Staff Attorney Grey Gardner to discuss the exciting new all drug decriminalization law in Oregon, Measure 110, as well as a community safety initiative in Portland that offers an alternative to policing. As a community leader and advocate for the last few decades, Commissioner Hardesty shares her observations on how the drug war impacts policing, and her thoughts on why a drastic change is needed.
For more information on DPA’s work around policing, visit drugpolicy.org/policing.
Special thanks to DPA’s Digital Communications intern Dilara Balkan for her help on this episode.
Welcome to Drugs and Stuff, a podcast from the Drug Policy Alliance.
Gabriella Miyares (0:09)
Hello and welcome to Drugs and Stuff. I'm your host, Gabriella Miyares. Today, after taking a bit of a breather on the podcast for a few months, we are very excited to bring to you this new episode featuring a conversation between Portland City Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty, and DPA's own senior staff attorney Grey Gardner. As we approach the anniversary of Breonna Taylor's killing, the connection between deeply problematic policing and the criminalization of drugs has never been more apparent. We wanted to take a deep dive into the changes that some communities are already making. In this episode, we discuss the new all drug decriminalization measure in Oregon, Measure 110, as well as a new community safety initiative Commissioner Hardesty is leading as an alternative to policing.
Grey Gardner (1:09)
First of all, Commissioner Hardesty, thank you so much for taking the time to join us on the podcast. And to be with us again, you've been such a great support for us. And we really appreciate that. I want to talk about some of the police reforms that you've been doing since you came into office. And certainly a lot of the discussions, the conversations that are going on in the city today. But before I do that, I want to talk a little bit about this really incredible point we're at after the vote statewide, in Oregon during this last election cycle, to decriminalize all substances, and to shift funds toward treatment, toward public health.
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (1:51)
This is one of the most phenomenal ballot measures that I think Portland has done in my 30 plus years living here. And it is really clear that the public is always well ahead of the politicians. And what this Ballot Measure 110 did was decriminalize possession of small amounts of drugs, that whether we're talking cocaine, heroin, oxycodone, a whole bunch of -- right, because I think what what we know here, or at least what the people know, is that this revolving door that we have of people who are utilizing drugs going to prison doesn't do anything to impact their drug use. In fact, sometimes it exacerbates it. With the billions of dollars that we've invested in our criminal justice system, it doesn't do anything to make people better when they come back. I have to say that when I was a legislator back in the 1990s, we actually were working on rehabilitating people who were incarcerated. That went out of the window in the 90s and the 2000s, when every politician was trying to outdo each other on being tough on crime. And so what we know is that we have built a system that pretty much takes a large chunk of any general fund dollars, and it has nothing to do with rehabilitation, or helping people be successful when they come back into the community. What this ballot measure does is take some of the tax dollars from cannabis tax resources and invest those dollars in treatment. And so what the ballot measure does is require that every county have treatment centers that would be funded through the cannabis tax dollars. And it's just, it's phenomenal. A, I'm like why didn't we do this earlier? And B? I think the voters, again, were way ahead of the politicians. I actually ran for office at the time that Ballot Measure 11, which was our mandatory minimum law was placed on the books, and I ran on the same ballot. And honestly, it was one of the reasons why I decided to run for the state legislature, because I was very concerned already knowing the unequal justice system that we were experiencing. I knew that passing a mandatory minimum sentence would exacerbate the over-incarceration of black and brown people. And it's exactly what it did. And so what I love about Measure 110 is almost immediately it will address the over-representation of Black and brown people in our criminal justice system.
Grey Gardner (4:54)
As you may remember, DPA had a major role in pushing to get the ballot measure on the ballot and, and has worked on it throughout the process. And we are super excited about that. And super excited to actually get to maintain the momentum on the ballot measure. What are you hearing in terms of, you know, pushback at this point?
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (5:20)
Well, interestingly, there was very little opposition, and I think the people that were opposed, actually were -- did not spend a lot of resources being opposed to the measure. I was surprised that our former Governor Kitzhaber came out in opposition to this measure as well. I thought it was fabulous having Judge Jones as the spokesperson for this ballot measure, because he was well known as a advocate for alternative to incarceration when he served in the Multnomah County Circuit Court. He was one of those innovative judges, actually, he was the architect of drug courts, and being creative about how do we divert people from going to prison, and put them into community supports. And so when I saw that he was actually the person that was in the commercials and a primary spokesperson, I was really thrilled with that. And let me just say that your assistance, in both helping us get financing to put this measure on the ballot, as well as helping us with education information and strategy was really critical to the passage of this measure. And so I am very grateful to the Drug Policy Alliance, because you've been doing this work forever. And again, normally the community is much further ahead than elected officials are. But because of your decades of work around this issue, I think it made it easier for Oregonians to actually evaluate whether or not this measure made sense. And you may know that it passed by a 57% margin, which in Oregon is pretty darn good, especially in this political time that we're in. And so, I have not personally been involved at at the state level around this issue. I do know that the people of color caucus is taking a leadership role and making sure that this rolls out as intended.
Grey Gardner (7:31)
Well, first of all, you know, when I spent time working in Oregon years ago, I was always struck by how forward-thinking the state has been on so many issues -- from land use, to transportation, vote by mail, as you mentioned, felony disenfranchisement, marijuana legalization, all those issues. You know, Oregonians seem to take a lot of pride in, in sort of being out front on on many issues. And I know one of the issues that you've really been doing a lot of leadership on is non police alternative response teams, crisis response teams in particular. I understand that you all have a citywide process looking at how to reimagine community safety similar to what other cities have undertaken.
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (8:20)
That has been absolutely fabulous. In fact, I partnered, my office partnered with Weiden and Kennedy, and they volunteered to help us with this communication plan. Because what I know is that the community should decide how they want to be policed. And the community should decide what community safety looks like. And so I launched this program, in the midst of the Black Lives Matter movement, in the midst of my ballot measure that would create the first truly independent police oversight board, and in the midst of protests that have been happening for 135 plus days so far, because what I know is that we have to replace what we have with something that makes more sense. And as you can imagine, the police are not happy with that. And I have noticed, since the 130 plus days of protests, that other communities, so, very comfortable white middle class community members, have had the experience that Black and brown people have had of policing for the last 400 plus years. And what white middle class people have experienced is police brutality, police abuse. We, we don't know yet what the long term impacts will be of gassing entire communities with tear gas for four months solid. Even when 45 sent in his federal militia group, what I expected from our local police was that they would protect and serve Portlanders. And instead what they did was join forces with the feds and brutalize community members. And so I think everything aligned so beautifully for both the statewide Measure 110 and my local police accountability measure, I26-217. That the public, because every night on the evening news every day in the local press, people were seeing the brutality that was being utilized against people who are actually advocating for police transformation. And I think that, I think because of this political climate that we have operated in, it made it much easier for my ballot measure, and 110 to pass.
Grey Gardner (10:56)
You know, we've focused for decades here at the Drug Policy Alliance on so many of those issues that you've, you've brought up -- the over-criminalization, the militarization, the aggressive tactics, the, you know, suppression of and oppression of certain communities, racially disparate policing -- can you tie this together for us? And can you talk to us a little bit more about how you view the drug war as driving so much of what has happened here? And what we're starting to, to, I think communities are starting to realize how much of this over-policing, how much of the police forces in our, our communities have depended on this cycle of arrests. This cycle of oppression and abusive tactics, or just aggressive tactics.
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (11:50)
I can give you a perfect example. For 14 years, Portland Police Bureau had a Gang Enforcement Unit, there were 28 officers assigned, those officers did not answer calls, those officers did not back up their, their colleagues on calls. All they did was ride around looking for gang members, and stopping people, searching people, etc, etc. From the very first report, I saw that over 50% of the people that they stopped, searched, arrested, were African American. Now I live in a city with a 6% African American population. I also live in a city where white supremacists have always been part of the Pacific Northwest culture. From the very first report that was released, I asked, how is it humanly possible that over 50% of the stops can be of Black people? It just, it did not pass the smell test. I can tell you that no elected official on the City Council ever questioned these annual reports from, about the Gang Enforcement Unit. Ironically, the day that I got to City Hall, the Gang Enforcement Unit changed its name, it was now the Gun Violence Reduction Team. And when I asked for comparable data, when I asked, so what new training had these Gang Enforcement Unit officers had to make them prepared to be Gun Reduction Unit officers? There was no responses to that. What I have learned over my time advocating, is that up until recently, police have led the conversation around where crime is happening, who's committing crime, and what are the interventions necessary to reduce crime. And it's, it became really clear to me when the Gun Violence Reduction team was all of a sudden a new name, because what the police already knew is because I'd been advocating against these, these racially disparate outcomes for over 30 years, they knew now they would have to answer my questions. So they just changed the name and kept doing the exact same stuff they were doing. I'm happy to say that, in the height of the protests back in June, I was able to get my City Council colleagues to eliminate the Gang -- the Gun Violence Reduction Team, the school resource officers, the transit officers from Portland Police Bureau's budget. And the other thing that I learned when I got to City Hall was that two thirds of the cannabis tax dollars were going directly into Portland Police Bureau's budget. And I thought to myself, the people who have been criminalized because of small amounts of marijuana. Now the police want to benefit from the over-criminalizing of Black and brown people in our community. And I thought that was insane. All three of those units, and the cannabis tax dollars, I had put in proposals to defund and remove that from the police budget three times. Prior to the Black Lives Matter movement starting, I could never get the other two votes necessary to get my colleagues to support it. I felt like I was in the right place at the exact right time when the protests started, because I had the 30 year background of working on this issue. And my colleagues followed my lead and helped to eliminate those units from the Portland Police Bureau budget. So we ultimately were able to cut $27 million out of a $253 million budget in June of this year. That was a huge success. And had the protests not started, had we not seen this movement happening across the globe? I -- it would have never happened. And so I know that community organizing, I know that grassroots push is always necessary to get elected leaders to do what is the right thing to do. And let me say that now, I was not successful last week, and getting an additional 18 million dollars cut out of the police budget. And I know why that is. And why it is, quite frankly, is that people cannot imagine yet what replaces police. Because that was the question I kept hearing. Well, if we're not calling police, who's showing up? Because we have trained the public to believe that if there's an issue, and the police have done a good job of training the public to believe, that if something's going on in the community that's not normal, they should call for the police. And the police have done a great job of making a community think that police are the solution to all the social ills.
Grey Gardner (17:30)
Well, they've also been successful in convincing the public that arresting people for drugs, in particular, has an impact on community safety, where the research shows otherwise. It appears that, you know, in so many communities, whether it's through the narcotics units that just do these buy-bust operations to try to generate arrests, or whether it's just traffic patrol officers who are, you know, making pretextual stops to support searches of vehicles -- in the search for drugs, effectively. It certainly has a financial impact, probably on police. And on, on, potentially on -- police may perceive that as an employment, a threat to their employment.
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (18:18)
And it is. It should be, it should be because the reality is, is that police have one job. And that's to solve crime. And police have sold their service as they are a preventive measure in communities. And police don't prevent crime. Police are -- they come after crime has taken place. And if we're fortunate, they actually do the work to solve that crime. But what we know is that police have very poor success rates in actually solving crime, which I believe is why they put so much effort on targeting Black and brown poor community members, because there is less questions when you are prosecuting Black and brown people than there is if you are prosecuting white middle class individuals. And the police have learned how to sell their service as a preventive measure. But what we know is that police operate differently based on the communities that they are showing up in. If I was in the Southwest Hills, that are predominantly white and upper middle class. The police are not going to show up at my door the way they would if they showed up in a low income community, in East Portland. I live in East Portland and many times you cannot even tell what police force is speeding through your community, because we have Portland Police, Gresham Police, we have Multnomah County gang enforcement team and so there are just police everywhere consistently. The good news, however, is, over the years, we've taught the community how to actually monitor the police. I used to do a lot of training, encouraging people to watch the police, to pull out their cell phone cameras, to take pictures. And honestly, I think that's what's helped to shift the public perception of whether or not police actually keep us safe. We have seen enough cell phone video to know that police brutalize people when they think they can get away with it. And Mr. George Floyd's death was no exception. The inhumanity that was displayed against Mr. Floyd, I think galvanized people in ways that we have not seen in the past. And let me also say that I think because of COVID-19, actually pointing out what we all already knew, which is that Black and indigenous and other communities of color, were suffering the severe impact of COVID-19. And they were the ones that were suffering the most, both economically, and physical harm from COVID-19. The moment that was announced, I started seeing around the country, states saying, oh, well, let's open up, right? That we need to open back up. And what have we learned from those early states that reopened and thought that COVID would not impact them, is that we are having a surge of COVID-19, that has surpassed where we were in March, when we first had, took our first actions around COVID-19. Right. And it's, and I personally believe it was because the analysis was -- it, the biggest impact is going to be on Black and brown people. So basically, we shouldn't have to worry about it. And so I think police have been able to sell that story as well. Black and brown people are dangerous. And therefore the kind of force we use against them is appropriate. I have been in rooms with police that talked about, you know, this gang, they wear their hat this way. And if it was this other gang, they wear their hat backwards. And I went, well isn't that fashion? Isn't it fashion, rather than a gang statement? And because people trust what the police say, or used to, the public just brought those kinds of analysis, hook line and sinker. But what we know is we continue to invest money in policing that doesn't work. And so now, part of Rethink Portland is really about how do we make sure that we're looking at our system of criminal justice? So one of the things that I am working on is with a Dr. Jon, Dr. Jon Jay out of Boston University is a professor. He's got a lot of work around predictive fires, right? We worked with him and Portland, with the Fire and Rescue Bureau, because he could do an analysis and tell you and predict where the next fires would take place. I have invited him to be part of our rethinking community safety, because I want us to rethink community safety from a public health perspective, not from a law enforcement perspective. So when we think about it from a public health perspective, we would make our investments a lot differently, then we would thinking about it from a law and order kind of perspective. We have just started that work. But here's what I know. I know that if we reduce the number of police officers in the city of Portland, we will need less assistant DAs. If we're not prosecuting houseless people for misdemeanor crimes or crimes of poverty, then we won't need assistant DAs prosecuting misdemeanor crimes. That also means that we will need less sheriffs because sheriffs are jailers in Multnomah County. And so that's why for me, it's important to bring the county elected leaders in, to bring the DA in, because Portland has an important role. But Portland's role isn't the only role. And even though the police are the front end of the criminal justice food chain, I know how it impacts every other segment of the food chain. We have a lot of work to do in transforming what policing will look like in the future here in Portland, and in Oregon. I'm currently serving on the governor's task force for the Department of Public Safety standards and practices. And this is the place where every law enforcement in a state has their first 16 weeks of training, and I agreed to serve on this task force because I know that we have to change how we train police officers from the beginning, we have to also change where we recruit police officers from. And here's a ironic thing that has been a burr for me for the last 15 years, I found out that there is a psychologist, a white male, who lives in Lake Oswego, which is a suburb of the Portland metro area, named David Corey. And this one man has been deciding who is worthy to be a law enforcement agent in Oregon for well over 20 years. I have asked over and over again, how is that even possible? We have over 55,000 psychologists in the state of Oregon. Why would policing agencies all use the same one white guy who lives in the suburbs in the Portland metro area? And here's the the circular flow thinking, the response was, well, he's the only one with experience at evaluating people to be placed. Well, why is that? Well, because he's the only one who has ever had a contract to actually evaluate people who should be law enforcement. That has to change. And so I'm advocating that we have a diverse panel of psychologists making that decision, rather than having this one guy in the suburbs. And quite frankly, it explains a lot about how policing happens in the state of Oregon. Every piece of our criminal justice system has to be rethought so that it actually is a justice system, and not just a full employment for people who work in that field.
Grey Gardner (26:50)
I really appreciate what you were saying about the excessive policing, especially impacts communities of color, and how unnecessary so many aspects of policing are. And I just want to follow up because there are just so many areas here that are tied together -- that we talk about, you know, low level drug possession, that's certainly something that drives arrest numbers around the country. And it justifies the continuation of large police forces. We talk about even like, unnecessary contacts, you know, loitering, public intoxication, you know, why are those arrestable offenses in the first place?
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (27:36)
That is absolutely true. And what we're learning, as our houseless population explodes, we are arresting people for for crimes of poverty, right, rather than actually putting the money into addressing the issues that cause the poverty, we are in fact, punishing people for being poor, for being houseless, for being Black and brown. That's how our criminal justice system has evolved. It is absolutely, I think it's absolutely criminal. Because again, it's, it, it does not make us safer to arrest people because they're houseless. If you think about if we invested those dollars in housing, in mental health, in alcohol and drug treatment, if we invested those, those dollars in free public transit. What we know is that if we invest in services that support low income people, the need for policing is is totally minimized. I am very concerned because as we hit this economic cliff that we're about to go over, I expect across the country, for the houseless populations to explode. And if we believe that police will fix the housing crisis that we will find all over the country, we will continue to exacerbate this over incarceration of people that should have never been incarcerated in the first place. When I first moved to Portland, I used to be appalled when I watched how police would stop and search young Black men in automobiles, having them lay facedown in the -- on the cement, spending hours searching every portion of their car, as if they were some mafia type criminal, and most of the time, they would find nothing. And in fact, we collect data on a regular basis that shows that the, that Black people are less likely to have drugs, guns and other paraphernalia, but they're four times as likely to be stopped and searched and questioned. And I think our criminal justice system only tells a very small part of the picture. It doesn't tell us the story about how people are intimidated and abused in their communities. I know in Portland we, the police have this, this term called "mere conversation". Mere conversation does not require them to collect data, either age or race or gender data, because the police say these individuals are free to go. And they could walk away at any time. I have said for over 20 years, I don't know a Black or brown person that would turn their back on a police officer and walk away. The police tried to convince me and my colleagues regularly that, Oh, the community knows their rights. I have been a community organizer long enough to know most community members don't know that they -- we have all been taught as kids that when, when, when a person of authority asks you a question, you answer it, right? Unfortunately, that's what we teach our kids. But what I have learned is that putting police in the schools allows police officers to question kids who don't understand the implications of their conversations with police, that then ultimately lead to arrest or targeting of their family members by those same police officers, or their, or their friends. This system was never built for people of color, for Black or brown or indigenous folks. It was built for white men. And unfortunately, it still works primarily for white men. And I think we have an opportunity now, after this Black Lives Matter movement, after the devastation that COVID-19 has created, after the economic cliff that we're about to go over, I think we have the ideal time to rebuild communities in ways that serve community. And believe it or not, I am really excited about what we rebuild coming out of COVID. Because with a whole lot less public resources, we're going to be forced to be smarter about how we invest those resources. So for me, rolling out Portland Street Response is part one of that effort, but we have to do a lot more to actually reinvest the dollars that we currently squander in our, what's supposedly our criminal justice system, and reinvest those dollars in community. I'm looking at programs like violence interrupters, that some folks around the country have been using to replace people calling the police. I'm looking at community mediation centers. We have to rethink what, what does it take to keep a community safe, right? And what does it take to make sure that we are not trying to arrest our way out of social ills?
Grey Gardner (33:07)
And isn't that one of the keys to all of this, is rethinking what we see as criminal behavior? And actually decriminalizing many of those things that for years that we've assumed, or we've taken for granted, could carry a criminal penalty that gives police an excuse to deal with somebody, and to eventually arrest somebody if they choose to do so. And you talked a lot about behaviors of poverty that are, that are criminalized, of homelessness that are criminalized, and the ways that police do engage in order to search people. And you know, I know that some communities have with -- that short of actually decriminalizing at the state level of drugs, they have said it's the lowest law enforcement priority for us to arrest people, for example, for psilocybin. You know, there's a way that we could do that with, as a policy matter, in municipalities to say, look, we are not going to spend dollars to actually arrest people, we are not going to spend our dollars to investigate people by police for suspicion of either drug use or you know, public intoxication or similar offenses. Is there a way to do that, as part of this reimagining?
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (34:36)
There absolutely is a way to do that. And I'm, I feel really fortunate in Portland. As you may know, our new DA Mike Schmidt ran on a transformation platform. He ran on a platform of reducing the number of people that came to the district attorney's office, the number of people who would be prosecuted, whether -- and making really intentional choices about how his office would operate. I can tell you that the backlash that he has received from other law enforcement agencies has been harsh. It has been severe, and he has suffered the consequences of overreach by both state officials as well as federal officials. Recently, you may have heard that Portland Police officers, we had 40-some Portland Police officers that were deputized at the request of the Oregon State police during a weekend where the Proud Boys -- one of the white nationalist groups that have been empowered by 45 to just kind of show up in urban communities and terrorize people -- they were deputized without the knowledge or consent of city elected leaders. When the weekend was over, and it went better than I think anybody had hoped, we learned that the federal government refused to lift the, the federalization from these Portland police officers. And the reason was because they did not like the fact that our new DA refused to prosecute people for interfering with a police officer, or loitering, when people were exercising their first amendment right to protest. Police traditionally during protests will arrest people for very suspicious activity. And they just dump on charges, right, because what they want is for something to stick. And because we have a DA, a new DA who took office early, because of a DA who has publicly said we're not prosecuting people for interfering with a police officer or for anything that's not a real crime, due to protest, we're just not going to do it. The federal backlash and the backlash of other policing agencies in the Portland metro area has been significant. I really admire and respect our new DA, and I'm doing everything I can to support him. Because that's what we need, is we need more than, we need people at the local level, like local city government level, we need DAs to have a different perspective about what a DA's role should be. And because we are fortunate to have this new DA, we have the opportunity to really reimagine, rethink how all those processes will work. And I know that one of the biggest fears, whether it's assistant DAs, or police officers, is job security. And I think we have to be honest, we will have less police officers, we will have less assistant DAs, we will have less sheriffs. Is there a way to do this locally? Absolutely. But what it will take is community pressure and political will. And for me, the political will has always been lacking until this year. And it has been because of the protests that have been happening all over the country.
Grey Gardner (38:29)
And I think one of the other aspects of this keeping people safe conversation is, how do we keep people who use drugs safer? Knowing that people are going to use drugs under certain circumstances, and in sort of different ways. Are we exploring safe consumption spaces and, and drug checking and other harm reduction services as something that is fundamental to this reimagining process?
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (38:59)
You see, and I think that is critical as we continue to think about, how do we reduce harm? Right? How do we reduce harm? And how do we make sure our community members are -- have the supports that they need? Yes, I think safe injection spots. We already have needle exchange programs, even though it is not widely accepted as a good positive step. I think with this, with the passage of Measure 110 it gives us the ability to kind of think about what do community members need in order to, they're going to inject drugs, to be able to inject drugs safely. I mean, we're still trying to figure out how do we allow people to legally use cannabis? Publicly, right, because right now, if you're a houseless person and you use cannabis, you could be arrested, right because the law says you're supposed to use it in your home. Well, if my home is under this tree, I should have as much right to use cannabis as someone who has a door and a roof. But that's not what the, that's not what the law says. And so we are trying to make some changes at the legislative level that will provide places for people to be able to use cannabis without fear of being arrested or harmed. And I think the more we can expand that mindset, I think the better and safer our community will be.
Grey Gardner (40:33)
Really appreciate you, you've been so generous with your time and covering so much ground for us. And certainly all the work that you've been doing to press these issues over the years and over the past few years to really lift this up into the public debate.
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (40:47)
So it's kind of 30 years of active activism, right, leads to six months of real transformation.
Grey Gardner (40:58)
It's a very exciting time.
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (40:59)
It is very exciting. And it's my pleasure, and don't hesitate to reach out again, I'm happy to talk to you again as we move down the road on these fabulous opportunities we have.
Grey Gardner (41:10)
That sounds great. And as we develop more policy recommendations, I'd love to talk to you more about those as well.
Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty (41:17)
That sounds like a plan.
Grey Gardner (41:19)
Gabriella Miyares (41:25)
A huge thank you to Commissioner Hardesty and Grey for joining us, and to you our listeners for tuning in. If you'd like to learn more about alternatives to policing and DPA's work around policing, check out our new page at drugpolicy.org/policing. Stay tuned for new episodes. There's some exciting conversations coming up soon. As always, if you have any feedback or ideas for us, tweet us @drugsnstuffDPA. And in the meantime, stay safe and stay well.
Drugs and Stuff is brought to you by the Drug Policy Alliance. If you like what you hear in the podcast, do us a favor and rate the show on iTunes. Give it five stars and a nice review. Also, we'd love to hear from you. Tweet at us @drugsnstuffDPA, use the hashtag #drugsandstuff. And check out our website drugpolicy.org to see the other work we do, sign up for our emails, and donate. Special thanks to our producer Katharine Heller, and to the hard working staff of the Drug Policy Alliance for all of their work. Thanks for listening.